kidshare
Champion Author
Nevada
Posts:1,946
Points:741,555
Joined:Sep 2006
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2007 3:14:37 AM
Why would you pay more for a car that may or may not be what you want? Pay more to be more green? What if the car you have works just fine?Is it me or do these hybrid cars look just plain ugly? I'm not forking out 20 grand for a car that is ugly. That's what used cars are for.
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GeneS
Rookie Author
Hartford
Posts:60
Points:2,228,125
Joined:Apr 2006
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2007 2:10:36 AM
Some links worth exploring....
Hybrid vehicle, From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_cars
Plug-in hybrid, From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid_electric_vehicle
Electric Auto Association - Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle:
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Main_Page
Hydrogen vehicle, From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
Plan to promote hydrogen cars:
http://www.euractiv.com/en/sustainability/plan-promote-hydrogen-cars/article-156730
Voila! A Car Powered By Air:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/28/tech/main2135518.shtml
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Muradia
Champion Author
Toronto
Posts:6,399
Points:1,383,405
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2007 1:28:04 AM
Without Premium
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Bill313
Champion Author
Kansas City
Posts:5,520
Points:772,565
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2007 1:05:06 AM
Nothing - No Premium Price
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uksqueeze
Champion Author
San Jose
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 11:50:22 PM
Up to $2000 more, if I could recoup that $2000 in gas savings in the first five years.
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uksqueeze
Champion Author
San Jose
Posts:1,821
Points:1,056,235
Joined:May 2004
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 11:44:33 PM
I saw a mention of hydrogen cars. I don't believe they will *ever* be viable. Tesla Motors, and GM with the Chevy "Volt", are demonstrating cars with all-electric drive trains with more than 200-mile driving range, using Lithium-Ion batteries. You charge them at home or at any standard outlet, from a distribution source (the electric grid) that permeates most of civilization. Electricity is 100 times more accessible than even gasoline -- every home, school, church, and office is a filling station. You plug solar panels or wind generators into the grid and bam -- you can charge cars with it, right then! No processing, no storage, no shipping in big tankers.
Hydrogen, on the other hand, requires an entirely new fueling infrastructure that will cost hundreds of billions of dollars and take many years to build (it won't be built, because the money will never appear, because it's not a viable solution). It requires gas pressures of 10,000 PSI (very dangerous if not done correctly, which means more cost), yet yields less energy per pound than gasoline. Hydrogen must be manufactured using hydro-electric, solar, coal, gas, oil, etc. That same energy could more easily be simply put onto the electric grid to charge cars with existing infrastructure.
Hydrogen is a glorified battery. Or, really, an unglorified battery. A form of energy storage -- that's it! Nothing else. Why spend all that money on something that we can't have for 20 years, costs much more than batteries and electricity, and has no benefit over existing battery/electric technology? The reason it's being talked about so much by the auto industry and politicians is that it's their escape. Since it's so far off, all they have to do is demonstrate that they're spending a few million a year on it (pocket change), and it deflects criticism from those who want some tangible progress in this area. Then they can continue with business as usual -- doing nothing for the future. It's a complete boondoggle.
If we wanted to use hydrogen for energy storage, the place it *might* make sense is in large, industrial tanks to time-shift electricity generation to periods of low demand. It's advantage over batteries is that it can "hold its charge" indefinitely. This is generally useless for cars, unless you plan to store your car for a year before using it, and expect the battery to be at full when you start it.
Cheers,
Steve
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Gossamerr
Veteran Author
Nevada
Posts:319
Points:196,510
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 11:18:20 PM
They should be the same price as the gas cars.
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heckwithopec
Champion Author
Milwaukee
Posts:16,144
Points:2,890,420
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 10:34:57 PM
"Does anyone know why Honda stopped making the Accord hybrid?" .....
It wasn't really designed for gas mileage, it was more for performance, therefore it did not sell very well because people didn't want to pay that much extra when the mileage improvement wasn't there. Honda's mistake, they should have gone the same route that Toyota did with the Camry.
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CoolPriusGuy
Champion Author
Detroit
Posts:1,799
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:55:11 PM
"I'd love to get a hybrid, but cost is a factor and unfortunately a lot of the hybrids on the market are higher-end vehicles so that puts them outside of my budget."
In April, the average sticker price of vehicles sold to consumers topped $28,000 for the first time in history, up nearly 9 percent from a year ago.
Base MSRP for the new Standard Prius starts at $20,950.
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gardezbien
Veteran Author
Ontario
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:44:16 PM
Experience has thought me to avoid first year make-overs and new high-tech vehicles. Until the automotive industry gets it right, I won't consider a hybrid at a regular price; never mind buying one at a premium!
I enjoy reading the dialogue on this issue as I'm learning from those who have actually bought hybrids.
;-{()
[Edited by: gardezbien at 8/9/2007 9:47:10 PM EST]
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nicholas116
Rookie Author
Louisiana
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Points:64,680
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:41:43 PM
although hybrids may be more economical I would rather have a hydrogen vehicle of course I am not rich so that is a bit out of the question. However, I think that in the next 10 to 15 years that is what we are going to see more of.
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nicholas116
Rookie Author
Louisiana
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:38:46 PM
I would buy a hybrid if they come up with one that fits my family and costs about the same as my van
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Sunshine7
Sophomore Author
Halifax
Posts:123
Points:331,635
Joined:Oct 2005
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:32:24 PM
I'd love to get a hyrid but cost is a factor and unfortunately a lot of th hyrids on the market are higher-end vehicles so that puts them outside of my budget. It sadly seems that those who can afford the higher price of gas can also afford to buy a car that won't cost them as much to operate. It would be great if the industry would market models in North America that the low to middle-income people could actually be able to purchase.
As for the extra premium, I suppose that I wouldn't mind an extra $2,000 but even that would have to be financed and that would eat into the overage payback in lower fuel costs :-(
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tomcat2door
Champion Author
Ventura
Posts:4,148
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:06:33 PM
All the energy in a hybrid comes from its gas tank.
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Synek
All-Star Author
South Carolina
Posts:757
Points:902,230
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 7:41:47 PM
Does anyone know why Honda stopped making the Accord hybrid? It's quicker than the regular Accord, so it must've had some real problems - or no demand at the price, maybe.
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GeneS
Rookie Author
Hartford
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 6:10:48 PM
Well, I would like to know what particular "hybrids were brought back than they can shake a stick at" so we all can avoid that vehicle. I'm on my second hybrid and am looking forward to my third! My Prius has plenty of power and I drive through the mountains in New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia without any problems with a lack of power. By the way, I have never run out of "juice"!
Re: badkittykat
I wouldn't buy a hybrid if they cost 2k less...They have no power and if you live in a mountainous state forget it!!! You'll run out of juice before you evenget going. My husband is a mechanic for a national dealership and they have had more hybrids brought back than they can shake a stick at.
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1moose
Rookie Author
Tacoma
Posts:37
Points:249,390
Joined:Dec 2005
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 6:09:06 PM
Why would I pay more for a vehicle that's still connected to the Oil Cartels. As soon as the automotive industry get's it and starts building alternative vehicles, like lpg (gas), electric (both photo voltaic and battery, plug in) then and only will I pay a little extra, but not much.
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DukeCityMan
Sophomore Author
Albuquerque
Posts:116
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 5:59:41 PM
Here's the deal. A long time ago I did an experiment. I put about an ounce of gasoline in a test tube, heated it with a bunsen burner. This would be like the heat coming from the car engine exhaust. The gas boiled. I had a valve at the top of the test tube and had it open so no real pressure would build up inside the glass. I let it burn for as long as it would. It produced a healthy flame for about five minutes. If the vapors are this explosive, why bother with hybrids, carburetors, or fuel injection? You'd likely need a conventional fuel system to get the engine warmed up, but could switch over to a vapor system afterward. There's your 200mpg car, folks...why don't we have it? And unless you've done an experiment like that, you have no idea how much energy is present in each ounce of gasoline...far more than we're getting out of it right now. And I'll also add, without the added expense of catalytic converters, simplifying the computers and eliminating most of the other "exhaust cleanup devices," the price of the automotible would drop significantly.
[Edited by: DukeCityMan at 8/9/2007 6:02:15 PM EST]
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GeneS
Rookie Author
Hartford
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Points:2,228,125
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 5:57:41 PM
A hybrid vehicle costs more to build than a conventional vehicle. It has 2 motors (Gas & Electric), 2 cooling systems and battery pack that is well over $1000 and an electronically controlled Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT). The hybrid drive train comes with an 8 or 10 year warranty for 100,000 to 150,000 miles (depending on manufacturer), and the warranty includes the batteries. The NIMH batteries are like what you have in your cell phone. I don't know about you, but I don't keep a vehicle that long. I had a 2001 Prius that I traded-in for a 2005 Prius because I had a lot of miles on it, so I turned it in before the wwarranty expired.
Re: flash906
Why should one have to pay more (premium) for a hybrid? For me it is just another way for the industry to rake in profits at the expense of the consumer. Another issue is what does it cost to replace the batteries? Honda and Toyota are replacing them for free right now and will not release the actual cost. I am sure if you really knew the cost, one would steer clear of the hybrid. Another question comes to mind, what about the environment with all the dead batteries, create a special landfill? Can't convince me that they will be fully recycled.
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bobjeep
Champion Author
Florida
Posts:9,806
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 5:37:14 PM
no more then any other car.
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flash906
Rookie Author
Dallas
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 5:13:41 PM
Why should one have to pay more (premium) for a hybrid? For me it is just another way for the industry to rake in profits at the expense of the consumer. Another issue is what does it cost to replace the batteries? Honda and Toyota are replacing them for free right now and will not release the actual cost. I am sure if you really knew the cost, one would steer clear of the hybrid. Another question comes to mind, what about the environment with all the dead batteries, create a special landfill? Can't convince me that they will be fully recycled.
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uksqueeze
Champion Author
San Jose
Posts:1,821
Points:1,056,235
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 5:02:46 PM
Interesting points about hybrids in hilly areas. I have a manual transmission Insight, and I find I get reasonable power up hill if I downshift, like down to 2nd at 55mph, which is fine for the way the car is geared. If you have an automatic (or really, CVT), all you can do is floor it. If that doesn't work, I guess you're out of luck. Perhaps a shifting of expectations on power is in order...
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badkittykat
Rookie Author
Montana
Posts:1
Points:1,300
Joined:Jun 2007
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 4:38:37 PM
I wouldn't buy a hybrid if they cost 2k less...They have no power and if you live in a mountainous state forget it!!! You'll run out of juice before you evenget going. My husband is a mechanic for a national dealership and they have had more hybrids brought back than they can shake a stick at.
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pkhdonovan
Champion Author
Maine
Posts:12,151
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 4:22:18 PM
not buying one
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DrWhy
Champion Author
Los Angeles
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 3:33:59 PM
2k
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yelobus
Champion Author
Houston
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 3:24:32 PM
I'd pay more.
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GeneS
Rookie Author
Hartford
Posts:60
Points:2,228,125
Joined:Apr 2006
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 3:15:11 PM
I was in Europe in May and most vehicles are diesels and CNG. What is shocking is that those models are NOT available in the USA. I had a Diesel GMC truck and diesel fuel is readily available. Diesels have more power than a gasoline engine.
Hybrids ugly??? Have you looked at hybrids? Check out these hybrids: Toyota Prius, Toyota Camry, Lexus GS 450h, Nissan Altima, Toyota Hylander, Ford Escape or Mercury Mariner?
TOP RECOMMENDED HYBRIDS:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/BuyingGuideArticles/subsubtypeId=293/
Re: alsal55
I don't know enough about diesel. It seems owners love their diesel vehicles as much as hybrid owners love theirs. I think Diesel has a negative image to lots of people (lack of power, sound of the engines, etc) and availability of diesel fuel is not a wide as it should be.
I will look very closely at a Hybrid for my next vehicle. But why do they have to be so ugly????
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heckwithopec
Champion Author
Milwaukee
Posts:16,144
Points:2,890,420
Joined:May 2005
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 2:59:37 PM
briz83....wrong, wrong, wrong, the electric motor assists the gas engine while going up hills as well as when passing other vehicles. I've driven 4 cylinder vehicles for 30 years and the hybrid is just as capable at passing vehicles and going up hills as any 4 cylinder, even better than a couple I've owned.
mysequoia....more misinformation, in 2006 the Honda Civic hybrid was 5 stars on safety because of the crumple zones as well as the fact that it had all air bags as standard equipment!
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chui
Champion Author
Dallas
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 2:52:36 PM
why pay more?????
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GeneS
Rookie Author
Hartford
Posts:60
Points:2,228,125
Joined:Apr 2006
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 2:52:19 PM
I'm on my second hybrid Prius and it certainly isn't a death trap. It has front and rear crumple zones, side-impact door beams, driver and front passenger Advanced Airbag System, driver and front passenger front seat-mounted side airbags and front and rear side curtain airbags. It has Anti-lock Brake System, Traction Control and Vehicle Stability Control.
Toyota had been selling Prius in Japan since 1997. Read the review at Edmunds:
http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/review.html
Re:
mysequoia
I'm not willing to buy one until they are made safer! Reinforced passenger cage w/airbags all around.
Right now, most are deathtraps due to their size and vulnerability in crashes, no thanks!
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wshredder
Veteran Author
Ontario
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 2:29:44 PM
I would be willing to pay a bit of a premium, but not a whole lot more then the standard vehicle price of a specific model. I would also like to see savings over the life of the vehicle so that the premium paid for it could be recuperated.
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tazdriver
Champion Author
Huntsville
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 2:16:39 PM
Wouldnt be willing to pay any more, since it is still experimental from the user adoption side, why should I pay for a hybrid test?
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briz83
Rookie Author
Missouri
Posts:24
Points:2,865
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 2:07:24 PM
With working at a car dealership, I haven't seen anything that would convince me to purchase a hybrid vehicle at this time. Hybrids are great when you live in an area where the land it pretty much flat. When you live in an area where there are hills to climb, Hybrids struggle going up the hills and aren't using the electricity power. They are using the gas power of the engine whenever the vehicle needs any umph to maneuver around other vehicles or going up hills.
I've got a 2007 Chevrolet Equinox and I'm getting 21.8 mpg in town driving... it rates a 19 mpg in town driving. So I'm getting pretty good gas mileage for in town driving for a small suv. I haven't had the chance to see what I can get gas mileage wise driving on the highway since most of my driving is in town, where you end up burning the most fuel.
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throttle
Champion Author
Maryland
Posts:11,982
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 1:45:58 PM
mysequoia, better do some more homework. There is a hybrid Camry and even larger hybrid vehicles. So hybrids aren't "deathtraps due to their size".
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mysequoia
Sophomore Author
Maryland
Posts:172
Points:264,115
Joined:May 2004
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 12:02:39 PM
I'm not willing to buy one until they are made safer! Reinforced passenger cage w/airbags all around.
Right now, most are deathtraps due to their size and vulnerability in crashes, no thanks!
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safire01
Rookie Author
South Carolina
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 11:53:48 AM
Nothing - No Premium Price
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alsal55
All-Star Author
Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 11:34:12 AM
Rochbear makes some really good points. Why haven't car makers been able to increase their average gas mileage? Partly because they have lived off of SUV sales too long.
I don't know enough about diesel. It seems owners love their diesel vehicles as much as hybrid owners love theirs. I think Diesel has a negative image to lots of people (lack of power, sound of the engines, etc) and availability of diesel fuel is not a wide as it should be.
I will look very closely at a Hybrid for my next vehicle. But why do they have to be so ugly???? I drive 140 miles per day with a Chevy Aveo getting 34 MPG. IN 60,000 miles, I've had no service problems. Edmunds rates this the vehicle with the lowest operating cost over 5 years that sells for under $15,000. My Aveo is basic transportation with plenty of power, it's flexible (back seats fold down), and I seldom pay over $25.00 to fill the tank. My point is that there are many, many vehicles available that can average 30 MPG. If you''re driving an SUV that averages 15 MPG and just switch to a nice sedan that averages 30, we could tell these Arab oil tychoons to keep their oil.
For me to buy a Hybrid, I'd need to be assured I could get at least 45 MPG. There are no longer tax incentives, so whatever premium I pay would have to be offset by fuel savings. I'm not sure whether that is doable or not. But I expect in two years when I need to replace my Aveo, there will be many more gas saving options available.
With the increasing number of fuel efficient vehicles available and coming, and as leases expire on gas guzzling SUV's that are replaced with smaller vehicles (I got rid of mine in March) I think Rochbear will see average MPG increasing across all car lines. As Toyota continues to increase its market share with fuel efficient reliable automobiles, American and other foreign car companies will be forced to compete or be out of business.
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jb107
Champion Author
New Jersey
Posts:9,695
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 11:30:45 AM
Driving less then 100 miles a week any premium would not pay
for itself
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milo
Champion Author
Calgary
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 11:24:12 AM
2 thou
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Wheelie_Boy
Rookie Author
Austin
Posts:6
Points:179,795
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 11:14:03 AM
I find it really interesting that the focus is just on the amount of money involved. Sure, money is is a big deal, but so is the environmental impact.
We bought a Prius in the first available model year, 2001. We are still driving it, and averaging between 40 and 45 mpg, depending on how often we run the air conditioner. Here in Texas, that's quite a bit. It's nice to drop by the gas station every 7 to 10 days and spend about $27.00.
But I have to emphasize the fact that the car's emissions are considerably lower than the standard internal combustion engine. When the engine is running in a Prius, it is only under load in its most efficient RPM range. It doesn't race or lug. And it almost never idles. If It's running at stop, It's either coming up to operating temperature or charging the battery.
It's kind of cool to drive it slowly, as in a parking garage, and hear nothing but the noise of the tires.
And it feels pretty good to be relatively green.
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RochBear
Champion Author
Minnesota
Posts:10,555
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 10:51:15 AM
I just went back are read a bunch of the postings. Good discussion, although a lot of STRONG oppinions. (That's what I love about this country, you can find someone on every side of every arugment)
Here's what I find interesting, The owners of Hybreds really like their cars. And they do get better milage than the "standard" car. (if there is a straight gas version - ie. the Toyota Camery).
What I really find dissapointing is the car companies. The Ford Escape gets 29 MPG (hybred). This is TERRIBLE millage, and people are saying how good this is. I suppose compared to 15 it is great, but that's the whole point. There is no reason why cars should get the terrible millage they currently get. We have a 1991 Ford Taurus, It gets 30 MPG. I also have a 1990 Daytona Shelby (Yes, it's got better performance than almost anything on the road) And it gets 29 MPG. But the whole point is, over the past 17 years, the average fuel economy has either stayed the same, or gone down. The Technology has gotten better. But the milage has gone down. There's no reason why a modern car (without Hybred tech) should not be getting at least 40.
Diesel is the way to go. It's a very proven technology, and if all the gas vehicals were diesel, we could basically half our fuel consumption. I have a 2005 diesel pickup. My dad has a 2005 Gas. I get 24 MPG, he gets 12. And I would be infavor of a diesel Hybred. Chrysler had one (as a concept car), it got 75 MPG! and it was a full sized car, not a tin can.
So, I fully agree we need better milage, but the jurry is still out on Hybreds. Diesel is proven, and has many advantages over gas. (my pickup will out pull the gas one - I have a 7000 LB trailer, and the diesel doesn't even feel it)
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CGC82317
Veteran Author
Cleveland
Posts:473
Points:276,455
Joined:Sep 2005
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 10:45:37 AM
I'll stick with my flex fuel vehicle and keepbuying E85.
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GASMAN632
All-Star Author
New York
Posts:978
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 10:44:59 AM
it should be the same price as normal cars....
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GreenLuminaAPV
Champion Author
Akron
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:55:16 AM
Nothing - No Premium Price
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N9HVP
Champion Author
Indiana
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:35:22 AM
Nothing - No Premium Price.
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KrazyDawg
Champion Author
California
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:34:57 AM
$2000 is reasonable considering it's a new technology and it saves you on gas. Everything that's newer and "faster" or more efficient will cost some money until it becomes a standard everywhere. Look at computers for example. New processors always cost money but they also have a higher rate of production. People are always expecting far more for the same price they're already paying. I'd say $1000-$2000 is reasonable. Nothing is free in this world.
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cwils
Sophomore Author
Indianapolis
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:19:29 AM
should be alot lower priced!!!!
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trundel
Champion Author
Rochester
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:18:16 AM
yes
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Battmann
Veteran Author
Knoxville
Posts:303
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Joined:Sep 2005
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 9:11:00 AM
Would Not Buy A Hybrid at Any Price
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altima03
All-Star Author
Toronto
Posts:898
Points:1,498,850
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 8:44:43 AM
For all the posters who have equated the hybrid premium with leather seats, moon roofs, etc., presumably the purchaser would still want those comfort options on their hybrid? They aren't equivalent...
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VariantTDI
Veteran Author
Maryland
Posts:430
Points:232,435
Joined:Oct 2005
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2007 8:22:13 AM
In 2002, I paid a $1200 premium for a TDI over the standard 4 cylinder engine. A similar premium to getting the performance turbo engine. I just chose a different "performance" option. Good economy vs. good acceleration.
Nobody asks the 1.8T buyer if that premium price will ever pay itself off....
In 75k miles, I've burned roughly 1600 gallons of fuel, vs. an equivalent 3000 gallons I'd have put in a gas engine. And my engine is barely even broken in... At $3 a gallon... I think I've gotten a payoff.
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